Tuesday, January 25, 2011

Big Picture: Fair Game


jameshayes said...

Thanks Bob

Q said...


What are you a Bob fanboy that hates Yahtzee? (new choice: Extra Credits?)

Ho ho, Running joke's about to start.

jameshayes said...


Q said...


KevinCV said...

Thanks for this, Bob. The sooner we get rid of this "fairness" bullshit, the better. Let me provide another example of a situation with the kinda trolls you've brilliantly described:

I'm a Doctor Who fan, and David Tennant was the first Doctor I ever watched and totally enjoyed. To some but not all fans of classic Who, that means I'm a slave to the tripe that is new series and it's respective spinoff shows. I've been trying to watch more classic Who to mitigate them from tossing that argument at me, but sadly, it's not good enough for many of those "fans". It honestly makes me feel almost ashamed to even be a part of such a large fandom in the first place.

But thankfully, I've recently met many fans of classic Who that not only enjoy the new series, but are also very understanding when you're someone who became a fan because of the new series and is willing to give the classic episodes a try. They'll give me recommendations for stories with each of the classic Doctors that they feel are good, and I go from there. So all is not lost. At least, I hope so.

Daniel said...

Gotta tell you Bob, tuesday is rapidly becoming my favorite day of the week :) keep up the good work!

I can't tell you how many times I've been told I hate the Prime series simply because I liked Other M.

Moshi said...

So this week you create a false dichotomy so you can get up on your soapboax so you can tell everyone you're entitled to being a narrow minded fanboy?

Seriously, I used to really enjoy your commentary and your reviews, even though I've always disregarded your opinion whenever anything having to do with DC/Marvel IP's or nerd culture in general has come up, but now it's become EVERYTHING YOU EVER TALK ABOUT.

Dave said...

@ Bob

Please. When people use the term fanboy, it isn't just a catchall for people who disagree with them. People that unable to deal with dissent usually use the term troll, as you yourself demonstrated.

Fanboy is reserved for people whose love for a given thing is so all consuming they feel the need to attack people who either don't like it, or do but like something else worse. Perhaps by labeling them as racists or illiterate boors.

I've honestly lost count of the number of times you've bitched about other people allegedly doing shit you yourself are doing AS YOU ARE ACCUSING THEM.

All your "I have a right to say whatever I want" posturing would be oh so much more effective if you didn't insist on bitching every time you get criticized.


hey moshi, did you know that Warner Brothers doesn't know how to market any comic property that isn't batman?

jameshayes said...

@ Dave

"Fanboy is reserved for people whose love for a given thing is so all consuming they feel the need to attack people who either don't like it, or do but like something else worse. Perhaps by labeling them as racists or illiterate boors."

....what the fuck? relevancy?

Dave Kraft said...

Okay, before I start I'd like to just get it out there that I am not the other Dave. Two separate people who apparently both post lengthy comments. I get a strange feeling there's been some confusion as of late.

That being said.... (and yeah, this might be long, but if you read it you might wholeheartedly agree)

Bob: While I understand where you're coming from..... uhhh, you miss the point.

You used this argument against me in a previous post, and I was wondering how it was at all relevant to what I had written.

The fairness doctrine you're writing about? Well.... that's not what's happening..... you were criticized for your opinion being subjective, not objective, as you state here in your video.

My criticism of your Wonder Woman video wasn't because you're a Marvel fanaticism somehow makes you anti DC..... but is instead better articulated as thus:

The problem has nothing to do with the fairness doctrine; it has to do with journalistic integrity.

If you don't like DC, that's fine, I'm not knocking you for that. However, that doesn't justify the misrepresentation or falsification of facts, which is a rather black-or-white, true-or-false, right-or-wrong issue not subject to disagreement, debate or opinion.

When you said that Marston wrote a story that was actually written and illustrated by George Perez about 40 years after he died, that's an issue of either you knowing or not knowing what you're talking about. You had admitted in a separate video - one far more Marvel-centric - that you were condensing information for the sake of keeping the videos as short as possible. That's fine..... but if the central pillar of your argument is a misrepresentation of a factual occurrence - DID HE OR DID HE NOT WRITE SAID STORY - then that is something I cannot respect.

Also, when you said you weren't making part of that video up, YES, YES YOU WERE. Either that, or your source is totally erroneous and you should have double-checked on that before you wrote about it.

Evaluating your videos on a case-by-case basis, your videos with regard to Marvel seem to have a lot more care in getting your facts straight, whereas your DC videos are scripted as though you didn't really care whether or not you got your facts straight, and then tried to use said fiction to prove a broader point.

This extends beyond Marvel and DC.

The reason I call you a fanboy is because you are allowing your fandom to become a purveyor of falsities, and rather than accept responsibility for screwing up - like you used to - you feel perfectly complacent in doing so.

If you're going to wave your job description in our faces with this video.... well, I think I liked the Bob from back before you were doing this as a paid job. At least, back before you got this new show, when you weren't censoring yourself on your movie reviews and you were coming out with TGO segments fairly regularly.

That Bob actually bothered to look up his information, and held himself accountable should he screw up.

Dave Kraft said...

@Myself: ...... yeah, that was a little longer than expected, even by my own standards. Uhhh, my bad. :/

The point is still there.... and that's what's important.

But yeah I wanted to agree with the other Dave, too, and add onto what he wrote by saying how I define fanboys:

-the people who rush to the assumption that something will be good because [insert big name here] is associated with it

-the people who give inordinate amount of praise to the work of [insert big name here] regardless of its actual merits as a product or whether or not said creator deserves praise for it, usually because of some outside reason or personal feeling that they are projecting onto the individual's work.

-the people who argue industry happenings from a rather egocentric fan perspective. It just shows how much they don't understand about how these industries (comics, films, games, etc.) work.

-The people who think they understand the labors involved in working in these industries, who then treat the artists like crap on places like DeviantArt. Like they expect us to be Epson printers because they really have no idea.

-In general, the sect of fandom which amounts to the lowest common denominator. Unfortunately, this is a fair majority of people out there.

But it's not just an internet thing, or a fandom thing.... it's a "stupid people" thing. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers...... they'll just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Lucas Neumann said...

wow, really?
I mean, you throw a hissy fit because Expendables outshined Scott Pilgrim (loved the movie BTW) and call the public Sheep, and now you want people to lay off your back, while you, yourself, have bashed a group of people just for spite?

Come on dude, you know the Troll infestation you're dealing with in the past months is not because you choose a side and is sticking with it. The Spiderman deal for an exemple. Would never have happened if you just said you didn't like the project. But you went beyond and started to bitch every chance you got, with the "spider-light" deal, and you got a backlash, surprise surpise...

And in the big picture, in the very first episode you picked a game you always made clear you didn't like and tried to fit a nazist doctrine in it. What the hell did you expected?

Ok, the trolling over the anti-thinker deal has blown disproportionately, and I get this must be wearing you off. But you reap what you sow Bob.

The internet is not as ugly as you made it to be, Every time I got in boards every corner about comics and movies, I've always said my opinion, like, I like Marvel but I don't like DC, or my liking to Jrpgs, and not once I got trolled. People usualy respect one anothers opinions, but when you get passionate about it and try to diminish the people who don't agree with you... like you did before, in you metroid video for an exemple, then you get the trolls, and it's not easy to get rid of them.

Anyways, pretty much a whine of an episode

Dave Kraft said...

@Lucas: Agreed. Again, the whole "fairness doctrine" has nothing to do with the issue at hand. It's a deflection of responsibility, insofar as I am concerned.

You know what? Instead of writing lengthy comments, I'm thinking of making video segment responses, with images, kind of like how Bob does it. Perhaps that might be more entertaining than having to write lengthy segments people may not even read.

Robert said...

yawn* you already bashed people who use the term fanboy numerous times in game overthinker episodes. Stop feeding me regurgitated information. thanks

99prob99sol said...


You remember your comment about the Kinect and Move hate...about how people who don't like party games should just accept the fact that there are people with differing tastes out there and not hate them for just that reason...Please consider that advice. Please relax. I say this because your primary appeal is as an intellectual, and to a certain degree you need to maintain a degree of objectivity. Stating your beliefs and opinion is fine. All honest intellectuals should do as such. But if you succumb to the temptation of relying on popular opinion as validation, or vitriol, i.e. saying "YOu're f---ing wrong", or "What are you, a f---ing idiot", it's like a theologian saying "God moves in mysterious ways."

On the plus side, at this rate, you could become the video game equivalent of Glenn Beck. And he's got a chunk of change, and is very fun to watch. Just don't internalize it. Make your moeny, but leave it at the door. Some people start to believe this stuff after they preach it for to long. I would rather that not happen to you. You've got a good intellect, and I'd hate to see it wasted.

Dave said...


I should think it would be obvious where the 'relavancy' is.

Bob makes several controversial remarks on both of his websites. Remarks that people called him out for. I'm fairly sure the term fanboy came up at least once. So now he is, as he is wont to do, trying to redefine the entire argument. In this case by claiming that fanboy in effect doesn't actually mean anything (instead of it being a very specific criticism labeled at his well documented habit of deciding beforehand whether a thing will be good or not, reinterpreting all new data to match, and using ad hominems against people who think differently)

@ dave Kraft

Lol. I'm fairly sure there's another guy who post here who is also named dave something or other. If you want I can try to change my name to something more distinctive.

jameshayes said...


I'm not convinced. Seriously, though, do you have any examples to support what you're saying? I'm not saying you're wrong, just that both arguments you've presented remain ambiguous.

Nick said...

As has been mentioned before, I now find myself wanting the Game AntiThinker to stick around longer, just to tick off the whiny brats in these comment threads.

Bob said...


I actually DID do a fair amount of research on the Wonder Woman episode, so I definitely want to know which Perez story I mis-credited to Marston. I know I showed some cover and panel art that wasn't strictly from the first run, but the only story I mentioned was Marston's origin from All-Star Comics #8. I didn't have a reprint or (obviously) a hard-copy handy, but Scott Tipton's old Comics101 archives HERE: (http://www.asitecalledfred.com/comics101/62.html) had a detailed summary and some page scans, so I checked what I already "knew"/remembered against that before writing that part of the show. Mainly, he had a whole scan of the plain-text "backstory" with all the Hercules details.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's my source. So, if I, that source or both are wrong show me where so I don't make the same error in the future.

James said...

Great show! As always, I will now quibble about minor things because I AM SO FAIR. But really, like Yahtzee pointed out, it's really hard to talk about why you like a thing, attacking something is much easier intellectually. And that may be the root of the real problem. The "fanboy" slur seems to me to be a attack on someone's perceived intellectualism within the community. God only knows how many times my really good friends and I had a stupid round of nerd one-ups-manship. It's a way to call the other side stupid without actually calling them stupid, so as to safe your precious ego and not have to think.

So basically a way for nerds to be lazy and still feel superior to others over knowledge in obscure matters, the two main reasons for nerds. I see it lasting into the near future, ugh.

James said...

Also, holy crap for the double post, but I left this page up and commented before refreshing it, at which point a billion comments popped up. So I'm preemptively sorry if anything I said was mentioned before.

Bobby said...

Help me out here, at around the 2:26 mark, there was a picture of a creepy Giger-esque creature with tentacles. Where did this picture come from? This is killing me.

Sssonic said...

@Bobby: That image would be from the 1989 film "Godzilla vs. Biollante" and shows the second form of the titular Biollante, a mutant monster created by cross-breeding Godzilla's DNA with that of a Rose (which also possessed DNA from a human girl, thus supposedly passing her "spirit" on to Biollante, but that's a whole other matter).

Anyway, I think this episode would be a lot better off if you could actually cite statistics on this sort of thing, Bob, or at the very least give us actual examples of these kinds of conversations rather than the generalized versions you use here (preferably ones that don't involve you personally, too, but even those would be better than nothing). Because as it stands, all I have to really go on are my own experiences in the "geek culture" sphere of the internet, which rarely if ever match the idea you put forth, that this "You HAVE to praise/criticize such-and-such in equal measure with this other 'rival' such-and-such" is the dominating force in fandom discussion. I have indeed seen people whose reactions might be construed to be motivated by that idea, but they have never dominated the discussion in the least, and even then assigning that exact motive to their reasoning is rarely so clear-cut a thing to do, beyond making rather baseless or at least unfair assumptions of your own.

jameshayes said...

Bob, I must say, while the trolls may be annoying, the moviebob comments are my new source of daily entertainment!

Dave said...


I kindof figured it was obvious enough. Exactly what do you take issue with, because there isn't enough space for me to exhaustively explain every minute detail of every point I made.

My basic point was that this vid was self serving. Bob attempting to frame any criticism of himself as irrelevant. People don't call him a fanboy for not liking things. They call him a fanboy for his being openly deceptive and manipulative in trying to get other people to not like them. An example of this is Spiderman. He keeps calling it spiderlight. There's no connection between spiderman and twilight, but he knows nerds hate twilight. Or uncharted. He ignores the painfully obvious firefly comparison (because nerds like firefly) and instead brings up dane cook....because nerds hate dane cook. He wants people to hate halo so he compares it to nazism. he wants people to like Other M so he accuses its critics of being racist against the japanese.

I could go on like this. The antithinker himself is one giant "anyone who likes the following games is a homophic moron".

Then he characterizes the people who bring up these issues as trolls which regardless of the veracity of their arguments, is not what troll means.

And I'd like to point out that in this one post, I've done a hell of alot more work backing up my assertions than bob has.

white templar said...

Alex Jones' commentary has more grains of truth in an episode than Limbug or Madcow could muster in a lifetime of broadcasting.

James said...


So basically the fanboy part is having an hidden agenda while pretending to be informed and objective?

Also, generally agree with the what you said about what Bob dislikes (though I personally think Firefly is an over-rated piece of shit). TV Tropes was right, Small Name Big Ego.

Michael said...

Full disclosure: I spent 3/4ths of this video thinking it was about the Naomi Watts and Sean Penn movie, wondering when you were going to start talking about.

Dave said...

@ james. Not quite. It has to do with fanaticism. Think of it like religion. Many people are fine with other religions and belive that as long as we are good people, it doesn't matter what god we do or do not worship.

Whereas religious fanatics only care that you worship the 'right' god.

Fanboys are like religious fanatics. It isn't enough that you have different tastes. You have to adopt theirs or you are deficient in some way. A perfect example: I cannot fathom someone not loving firefly. But I understand that you and I merely have vastly different tastes in this regard. And while I might try to convince you of my position, It doesn't impact my view of you as a person.

Lucas Neumann said...

So Dave, how long we have before we see geeks strapping bombs in their torsos and start blowing up VG companies?

Ok, ok, lame joke, sorry, just couldn't pass this oportunity.

Now seriously, as I see, the main problem with the whole fanboys, trolls and the geek internet drama is when "me liking something you don't makes me better than you"

Really, I've seem enough sites and foruns just about everything, you name it, and things run pretty smooth most of the times. I really don't see this fairness doctrine Bob mentioned, people state their opinios and engage a conversaion with arguments. Of course, there is always someon who is more passionate.

But being passionate is fine, I kinda like how nintendo can make such huge texts about their nosalgic times with the nintendo games, and is kinda cool how it helped shaping them into the persons they are today.

But when someone tries to force their opinion by diminishing the PEOPLE that don't share it, then you've openned the Pandora Box.

If I say I don't like FPS, I like Jrpg (and I don't like manga and anime... at all, I know, go figure), I'm safe. But If someone don't agree with me, and I imply that people who enjoys FPS are douchebags morons who can't enjoy a fantay world, then I'm screwed.

The thing is, people don't like be labed, they don't like to be told they're "XXX" just because they like something or take a side

And that's what you did with the Anti-thinker. I belive that it wasn't your intention to make the hardcore FPS fans into that homofobic douche, and more like a joke (an unfunny one, sorry man) but with your history, dude, it's like Mel Gibson staring a sit-com to rip on jews. Did you honestly think people wouldn't perceive things this way?

Also bitching, I may not like something and openly say it, but if I keep hitting that nail with more and more "sarcasm" and spite, sooner or later someone will call you on it, and the troll fest will begin.

I dunno if I'm being clear here, but to me, the internet is pretty much like this, you receive what you deliver. it's perfectly fine to have strong opinions and disagree with others.

jameshayes said...

@ Dave,

I was talking about your claims of fanboys' (and by extension, Bob's) *racism*, to be exact. How is that at all relevant to your point that the video was self-serving if there's no proof to support that claim?

You don't have to answer that. I'm not interested in a flame war, but your condescension annoys me. I've read every word of every post you've written, and I understand what you've said - it just makes no sense. Don't assume it does. Don't assume that it would to anyone besides you. Don't treat me, or anyone else that takes the time to acknowledge your posts, as an idiot.

@ Everyone reading this,

You know, all these comments have done have confirmed what Bob is saying in his video, implicitly and explicitly. Everybody here who has an opinion has been stubborn, asinine, and frankly, childish. There's no point in expressing your views to an open forum if you're not willing to listen to anyone else. All it reduces conversation to is a sort of verbal masturbation. Defend what you have to say, sure, but, seriously, the tone of some of the things that all of us have to say is getting out of hand. I'm no one's enemy here, just as I don't expect anyone to treat me as theirs.

Please, everyone, relax.

Dave said...

@James hayes

I don't recall claiming bob was racist....

But it is an ad hominem he goes to periodically. The other m commentary is a good example. Dare suggest that perhaps the very real gender issues in japan had any role in her characterization and you are a racist. Then there's the entirety of the antithinker....

And the whole 'needing to attack someone personally to justify your love for something' was the criteria I specified as the genrally accepted view of a fanboy. Bob's video was trying to characterize the term fanboy as a meaningless insult people use when you don't agree with them.

It is self serving because bob is essentially trying to brush off the rather vocal criticism he's been getting of late as just people "trolling" (his words, mind you). Which lets him feel much better about himself than if multiple people were all coming at him with the same specific criticisms about how he does his shows...which is what happened.

Not sure a person who claims that everyone but him is asinine get's to complain about alleged condescending from anyone.

jameshayes said...

@ Dave

"Fanboy is reserved for people whose love for a given thing is so all consuming they feel the need to attack people...by labeling them as racists or illiterate boors."

The Other M video is NOT a good example. Bob satirizes *misinformed* people, not *racist* or *partial* people. He specifically says that someone who would typically think that Japan is a misogynist hellhole would get their information from viewing 4chan, which IS a misogynist hellhole but has no bearing on the entire nation of Japan.

And to be clear, I didn't say everyone was asinine, and I definitely didn't say everyone but me is asinine. I said this whole string of comments are - myself included. What is the point?

I'm annoyed now, and that's the only reason I care to respond to you - the flaws you claim are apparent in Bob's logic and argument are MUCH more apparent in yours - you've spun what I've had to say on multiple occasions and I don't appreciate it. Seriously, man, I don't have anything personal against you, but I have the same issues with your comments as you do with Bob's videos and commentary.

Ezenwa said...

Didn't think he'd make a vid based on this, but I guess there's a first time for everything.

Quite honestly, I have grown out of my fanboy-isms and have learned to look at things objectively. That doesn't make me better. I just see that after Bob was forced to admit that he does make these videos if not only to inform but to garner controversy, I don't mind it as much. I'm still perturbed that people can look at others who take this style or approach (i.e. Extra Credits), without trying to elicit issues to a grand scale and get flamed or message-bombed for it. I mean, sheesh, people. Bob is Bob. Hands down. But if someone were to be like Bob only calmer and maybe more informed, it doesn't make them Bob.

Though, I still do enjoy listening to Bob's reactions to things. Funny stuff.

Dave said...


Yes, the other M video is a good example. And even it it wasn't, it isn't the only one. There's also the inaugural issue of this very video series. The one where he tries to make halo look racist.Then there's the entirety of the antithinker. And pretty much any episode where bob has to deal with anything he dislikes. Inevitably a painful strawman will come up spouting racist or misogynist or homophobic garbage just to remind us that if we disagree we are bad people.

"And to be clear, I didn't say everyone was asinine, and I definitely didn't say everyone but me is asinine. I said this whole string of comments are - myself included. What is the point?"

If you yourself say your comments are asinine, then what is the point indeed? I didn't think yours (or most others for that matter) were asinine at all. I have no problem if people require me to clarify my points. it was my mistake to assume that no one would willingly and knowingly say something they know to be asinine and pointless. Although it's a mistake the optimist in me is glad to make.

"I'm annoyed now, and that's the only reason I care to respond to you - the flaws you claim are apparent in Bob's logic and argument are MUCH more apparent in yours - you've spun what I've had to say on multiple occasions and I don't appreciate it. Seriously, man, I don't have anything personal against you, but I have the same issues with your comments as you do with Bob's videos and commentary."

Yeah, I don't buy any of that. You say you know your comments were asinine...yet you made them and support them. You say I annoy you and you don't want to be here yet you are. I'm thinking what you want is an out. And that's neither my responsibility or my inclination to grant. For the record, I never spun your words. I merely replied to them as I understood them. The fact that I was unclear should have been evident when I asked for clarification. Clarification you never really provided. Instead you decided to start insulting me,

James said...


"You know, all these comments have done have confirmed what Bob is saying in his video, implicitly and explicitly. Everybody here who has an opinion has been stubborn, asinine, and frankly, childish. There's no point in expressing your views to an open forum if you're not willing to listen to anyone else. All it reduces conversation to is a sort of verbal masturbation. Defend what you have to say, sure, but, seriously, the tone of some of the things that all of us have to say is getting out of hand. I'm no one's enemy here, just as I don't expect anyone to treat me as theirs.

Please, everyone, relax. "

So you massively insult anyone and everyone who comments, and then call for moderation? Sorry, I can't quite see you way up there on your high horse. But I guess none of us are good enough for you and your Internet video deity. Jesus Christ, I forgot this was the internet for a second.

And to offer some more points, you are confirming my original comment. People are "misinformed" and therefore stupid, all other arguments have flaws that he conveniently refuses to mention. This is all about calling other people stupid and making yourself seem superior in the most roundabout way possible. Some sort of nerd dick-measuring contest.

Iron Dragon said...

On the one hand I can see Bob's point, that in praising or criticizing something that you shouldn't need to point out advantages or flaws in the competitor or it as well. At least not as an inherent part of an argument. The problem, I think, is that in some cases there are arguments that will tend towards dichotomies.

American Politics has two major political parties, frequently condemnation or criticism of one is seen as a kind of support for the other, I am also in favor of the fairness doctrine but for reasons that I won't get into unless asked.

I think what could be taken away from this is the idea that something should be discussed and argued based on its own merits rather than on the merits of a competitor unless such context is relevant (IE saying why I bought X instead of Y). A game, movie, console, etc. can be good or bad objectively and arguing in its favor doesn't inherently make you a fanboy/fangirl/obsessive.

That being said I would argue that there is such a thing as fanboys and others who are, for lack of a better term, wedded to a particular console, ideal, game series, tv series, etc. The problem is that what constitutes obsession or blinders for some might not always constitute it for others. My experiences are more in tabletop roleplaying games where if I point out flaws in certain systems or game concepts I am called either a fanboy of a different system or a power mad munchkin, so meh.