Tuesday, March 13, 2012

The Big Picture: "Relics"

Plus a special message...

31 comments:

Joshua the Anarchist said...

Heh, love the Commander McBragg reference there.

Phil said...

Good episode, Movie Bob. I find it telling though that you had to parody a response of someone backing out of watching a video of yours because the topic of "racism" comes up. Seems to be telling of some of your audience.

However, I wonder if that is the reason why you have chosen to largely ignore the topic of racism, specifically in Hollywood.

There have been incidents that have happened and continue to happen that you just completely fail bringing up and commenting on in but have no problem talking about lily-white superhero films like the upcoming Avengers (Nick Fury is part of SHIELD not the Avengers).

Is this because you have gotten a lot of negative responses in light of the very few times you bring the issue up? Or do you just not care that much?

I hesitate to suggest that you aren't aware because knowing what's happening in the world of movies and American pop culture is part of your job so chances of you being unaware of it are quite slim but the fact that you don't ever actually talk about racism in Hollywood much makes me seriously wonder about your motivations for ignoring the topic when you have every opportunity to talk about it.

For example, M. Night's The Last Airbender was drowned in controversy over the casting of whites instead of Asians for the roles despite the fact that ALL of the show's characters were Asians (this is undisputed btw as the creators themselves have established this and for anyone who doubts that I can provide proof). The issue turned up in almost all major reviews for the movie even Roger Ebert mentioned this and criticized it. Yet all you said about the casting was one neutral word ("interesting").

All you did was a while later gave it a passing mention in that Big Picture episode inspired by the casting of Idris Elba in Thor and the rumblings that occurred because of it. While it seemed noble, I suspect that the motivation behind that episode was simply due to criticism being directed at a movie you were looking forward to rather than the actual issue itself being something you wanted to talk about. The movie in question let me also stress is a movie that is about another lily-white superhero.

I feel similarly when you made a blog post here mentioning the casting of Tom Hardy as Bane since Bane in the comic books is Latino. I thought it was cool that you mentioned it as criticism however while following your blog I noticed you always mentioned anything Dark Knight Rises related with a negative slant. Therefore it seemed that the real motivation for bringing Hardy's casting into question had less to do with being disturbed about Hollywood marginalizing nonwhite talent and more to do with you just finding something else to hold against a movie that for some reason you've grown sour towards sometime after the release of The Dark Knight.

You see, I don't see you mentioning anywhere Ben Affleck casting himself to play real life Latino American Antonio Mendez in the upcoming movie Argo (which is also a Warner Bros movie). Nonwhites hardly ever get casted for quality lead roles in mainstream Hollywood films and that there was a great role of not only an American hero but one who is of Latino descent which would've been a great opportunity for a lead role to a Latino American actor to shine. Instead, like most quality roles for nonwhites in Hollywood, it again got taken away and given to an Anglo-Saxon actor. Even a worse situation than that of Bane since it's a real life person. Why don't you mention and criticize that? Will you ever?

Nary a word about Warner Bros. mangling Akira by not even considering to hire Asian American talent to play the lead roles and instead only white actors. However, you write blogs spreading word about movies like the Bobcat Goldthwait one that deals with some idiot getting bothered with American reality shows so he decides to go on a killing spree while strangely noting that it's a "movie we need."

So tell me, Bob. What's the big idea?

biomechanical923 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
biomechanical923 said...

I think the fascination with "lost cities" is simply the question: "Why does nobody live here anymore?"
I can't speak for anybody but myself, but I never imagined places like Machu Picchu being inhabited by white people who somehow "vanished", and I've never heard anybody say or imply that they were.
I also think that the contemporary fascination with "lost civilizations" is a part of American culture trying to critically examine its Eurocentric history, and rejecting the false stories that we ("we" meaning "white people") invented everything under the goddamn sun.

v_opposition said...

I've almost never thought of lost cities as being in Africa. The trope is largely South American as most Lost Continent stuff and even the example of Indiana Jones is mostly South American. (Heck, I don't think Jones ever touches Sub-Saharan Africa in the movies)

Goku50k said...

@Phil,

Though I agree with on a lot of what you said, I kind of have to take you on when it comes to Bane. Bane is supposed to "Latino" but he is from a fictional island in fact and his father might have been enlish but nobody knows for sure. NOW do I agree they could have found somebody to play Bane who is Latino.....yea they could have but Nolan is known for changing things in the Bat-universe. I also must say that Tom Hardy is a good actor and to criticize him is not 100% fair, its Nolan's call and as we all know Nolan is known for working with a lot of the same people, I.E Christian Bale, Michael Kane, Gary Oldman, Cillian Murphy and so on. So while I agree with the idea that Bane "should" have been Latino in the movie and some of his origin should have been kept the same (because face it Nolan is going to change his background), Bane is kind of stupid villain anyways ( obviously not because he's Latino but because he really is just another 90's villain and his backstory is weak and uninteresting) so changing him completely into something much more interesting is a good idea even if that means you change his entire background, I'm okay with that, as long as it works with the story that Nolan and CO. have created.
But do I agree with you on everything else, yea I do. I think its easy to find Asian Americans to play the teens in Akira and I also believe that Hollywood still has a group of people that are at least partially biased if not completely on the idea on Whites playing non-whites in roles.

Dominic said...

Just fired off an email; looking forward to that particular episode. I found this one to be fulfilling a simpler "clarification" role than the "insight" one that your best episodes have inhabited, so I didn't find it quite as interesting as those, but still good viewing.

Anonymous said...

Mailbag Question: What are your thoughts on the Zelda timeline being revealed in Nintendo's "Hyrule Historia" book?

Anonymous said...

@Phil

In response to your point about 'The Avengers', the character of Nick Fury has NEVER been a member of the actual Avengers team. He has always been associated with SHIELD, in both his (Caucasian) original Marvel universe incarnation and his (based on Samuel L. Jackson) Ultimate Marvel universe incarnation.

Anonymous said...

@Goku50k

Also, I think some people might have complained about racial stereotyping if they actually made Bane into a Mexican guy wearing a Luchador mask.

Phil said...

Goku50k,
Thanks for your comment.

The place from where Bane comes from being fictional doesn't change the fact he is Latino. Gotham City is a fictional city but it is in the United States. Bane's home country (Santa Prisca) while fictional is set in Latin America. Therefore he is Latino.

Bane's father is known actually. It's "King Snake". Anyway, his father being British also doesn't change the fact that he is Latino since many Latinos are "mixed" and have European ancestry.

As far as his back story being "weak" and "uninteresting" I disagree. Him having to take the punishment for his father by spending all of his young life in prison is dramatic. Him training his body with much dedication while also educating himself as much as he can by reading anything he can while serving in prison is compelling. There is no reason why that couldn't be used as a springboard to tell a great story regardless of what you feel of how it was told in the comic books.

As far as Hardy goes, I called into question his casting not because I have a problem with him as an actor but because his casting is yet another episode in denying a possibly great role for a nonwhite actor in Hollywood. Hardy's career is going up unlike the grand majority of nonwhites who continue to be passed up for quality roles. Bane being a mental as well as physical challenge to Batman (one of the only Batman villains that are) that also managed to defeat him is what makes him a standout character. Would've been great for a Latino actor to shine. Not anymore thanks to Nolan.

Also, just because Christopher Nolan does something does not make it gospel. He is human and is subject to criticism like everyone else. The fact that he felt the need to whitewash the character, just like he did with Ra's al Ghul, is not only greatly disappointing but it also makes me wonder about him.

Phil said...

Anonymous,
You should re-read my comment about Nick Fury because you didn't say anything different than what I already said.

As far as your comment on Bane goes, he is not wearing a "Luchador" mask in Dark Knight Rises. So that wouldn't even have been an issue if it was even to have been one.

David (The Pants) said...

Well Phil it sounds like you've got two things going on here:

1. A "Bob didn't mention this thing I seem to care about more than he so therefore he does not care about it at all" mentality to your original comment.

2. A great request for a mailbag suggestion AND a good TBP episode. i think an episode about white actor preference in Hollywood would be cool and could be turned into something awesome.

So I say shoot him an e-mail. I say he take it up as a full episode rather than part of a larger mailbag episode, but whatever.

Hasse said...

Mailbag question: Hey Bob. I've been wondering what your thoughts are on the cable series Breaking Bad. You've said you're too busy to watch a lot of current shows, but in my eyes you can't be too busy to watch something this awesome :)

Goku50k said...

@phil,

I never said what Nolan was doing was gospel. Again I have to say that we dont know what Bane actually is for all we know he is British and half Latino but born in Santa Prisca. And for Ra's we have no idea what race or ethnicity he is since he never actually really states what he its been rewritten several times. Ra's Al Ghul could just be a code name for all we know. I'm not making excuses but at the same time this obviously isnt the first time this has happened, race washing has happened in hollywood before, Mexicans used to be casted as Asians because hollywood didnt want to cast asian actors to actully play themselves. Trust me i'm one of the first people who will call out racism when its needed, and as I said I agree with you on most of the issues, I think for exampel Akira is an extremely important anime film and is really about Japan in the long run, so unless WB really plans to change a lot about the original film then casting Asian-American actors would be awesome and in fact a good thing.
Also I wouldnt say that Nolan is racist because honestly we have no idea so i'm not going to make assumptions about him as a person. You could say that about anybody, for example, David Lean put Alec Guiness in the role of Prince Faisal in Lawrence of Arabia, yet thats counted as one of the greatest roles ever in Hollywood. I think that a lot of ethnicity and racial washing goes on in Hollywood just look at Tim Burtons Batman or even in the new version of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, why did David Fincher have to cast Americans instead of other Swedish actors and actresses? Its all about the performances and if somebody like Tom Hardy can play Bane then fine with me.
I also think that we throw the word racist around a little to often, its a word that needs to be carefully used, especially in this day in age where anything can be construed as being racist vs things that are actually racist, we need to use it in the right context especially since there is a lot of racism in American even today. I.E the tea party, Ron Paul and other people as well.
Whitewashing is happening in Hollywood but here's the thing for somebody like Bane it doesnt matter 100% because as I said before Bane just isnt interesting. His background is boring in my opinion. So reinventing the character is fine with me as long as they keep some of the same character attributes.
I also think that Bob had a point when he talked about Idris Elba being casted in Thor. A lot of people complained about that casting but Bob did defend his casting. And Idris was awesome in Thor but should we complain since all the gods in Norse Mythology are depicted as "White"....no we shouldnt because it was good casting. Also at the same just watch his review on Prince of Persia he does criticize the director for casting white actors (asside from Ben Kingsly who is half-white half Indian. So I have to say your really not being fair to Bob at all.
Until we really make race an non-issue in this country (which WE ALL should be fighting for that to happen) whitewashing or as I call it race and ethinicity washing in Hollywood is going to keep happening.

Joey said...

For the Mailbag: In my opinion, George Lucas should have done Indiana Jones 3D (excluding crystal skull of course) before Star Wars 3D. There is a lot of potential for it to look good too. The traps, the planes, the mine carts, the animals, the bridges, the ark and the explosions would look great in 3D, or at least HD. Also, the timing is right. Indy hasn't been seen in a long time. So why is Lucas ignoring this potential money maker?

Phil said...

@ David (The Pants)
Your #1 wasn't where I was coming from. As I said, I mentioned the fact that Bob made a parody of the reaction it seems some people give his episodes if he mentions anything to do with racism. So I asked if this was the reason he doesn't delve into the topic even when he has the opportunity to as it seems that when he does it's only because there is some other motive (e.g. a movie he is looking forward to is getting bashed).

Also, it wasn't meant as an entry for a mailbag episode. If he wishes to do so though, cool. If he wishes to use it as a basis for a full episode, great. I only asked.

@Goku50k
Bane is Latino. There is no mystery to that. His father may be British but that isn't any different to how many Latinos have European ancestry as many of them are mixed. I already said this.

We also know what Ra's al Ghul is. It was revealed in the comics. He is Middle Eastern.

About casting people outside of their ethnicity, the problem comes from 2 major things. The negative history that comes from whites portraying other races (e.g. black face, yellow face) and the fact that nonwhites do not get the same opportunities that whites get in Hollywood. This includes roles that are specifically nonwhite but are not offered to nonwhite actors.

Your example of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo isn't an equivalent because that wasn't casting actors outside of their ethnicities but outside of their nationalities which isn't the same at all.

Whether or not you consider Bane's origin interesting isn't the point. His ethnicity is Latino. There is no reason to change that even if the origin is altered in a film. You even said that the issue you had with him wasn't because he was Latino.

You actually didn't get the point Bob was making with Idris Elba being casted in Thor. He actually was touching on things that I am here. He says it was fine that Elba was casted because actors of color don't have the same opportunities as white actors in Hollywood.

His review of Prince Of Persia was a bit muddled in regards to the race issue. Sure he brings it up but then he kind of defends Gyllenhaal's casting so that really didn't mean anything.

I don't think I'm being unfair to Bob. I'm asking questions about this since racism was talked about in this episode.

Anonymous said...

@Phil,

Ra's has been charged with being a lot of different races and ethnicity's. And you are right my problem is not that Bane is Latino but in fact that his story is just boring so if Nolan is going to change his background and his past and everything about him, why would he not change his ethnicity that suits his needs? Is this the right thing to do, no probably not but I'm not going to complain, I cant complain about every little thing about racism or I would go crazy. I deal with enough racism in this world (I work for anti-racist groups), so if Bane is an interesting character in the film then that is fine with me. And if it is well acted then I am fine with that.
And your right nonwhite actors do not exactly have the same chance as white actors and that is terrible, but as I said until we fix other racist issues first, ones that are larger then we cannot fix Hollywood. Again I go back to Alec Guiness being cast as Lord Faisal, that is a great role and the question being is should we dislike it just because its not "P.C", I am going to have to say no its a well acted role.
I do not think that Bob defended Jake at all, in fact I believe he criticized the casting but defended Jake's acting skills in that role.

Sincerely,

Goku50k

Phil said...

@Goku50k
You should watch Bob's review of Prince Of Persia again because you aren't remembering it well. Bob mentions Gyllenhaal being half Jewish as a possible defense of his casting. It wasn't a full on defense of his casting (that's why I wrote Bob "kind of defends" his casting) but it was him throwing that fact out there. It's pretty ridiculous as one just has to look at the video games themselves to see that Gyllenhaal looks nothing like that.

I am not sure why you keep insisting Ra isn't Middle Eastern. It was explored and confirmed in the comics. Perhaps you aren't familiar with the comics as much as you think.

I don't see what needs have to be met for Nolan to change Bane's ethnicity and get an Anglo-Saxen actor to play him. He didn't need to change Batman's ethnicity nor get a nonwhite actor to play him so I don't see how that makes any sense.

Whether or not you like Hardy's portrayal of Bane doesn't evade the point (which you somehow have missed) that a great opportunity for a nonwhite actor was taken away. Like I've been saying nonwhite actors are not being given the same opportunities as white actors in Hollywood. If Nolan ended up writing a great version of Bane for his movie then it only makes it worse that Latino actors weren't considered because it could've been a chance for one to shine in a major spotlight. Instead, it's just another white actor playing a role that was originally nonwhite.

Your Lawrence of Arabia example doesn't change anything. If anything, it's another one to add to the long list of white actors playing outside of their ethnicity while the grand majority of nonwhites can't even play themselves in great roles and lead roles in Hollywood.

The fact that you are defending cases of whitewashing says to me that either you aren't really against racism or don't really understand it. It isn't superficial nor is it the last thing on any list of things to "fix". So called "Hollywood" is its own separate institution. You don't see this kind of blatant racism nowadays in many another industries. It's purely institutional racism and people like you that give it a pass every now and then only serve to protect that very racism that hinders the careers and diminishes the talents of the many nonwhite actors trying to make it in Hollywood.

Goku50k said...

@phil,

trust me I very much understand racism more then you would probably think. And if we really really want to get technical about this then we should say that Bane is in fact Hispanic not Latino, since Prisca is in fact a European Spanish owned colony and since we dont know anything about the Island itself of what it was before the spanish took over then we really dont know anything about it. Your really missing my point. And I never really said that its the last thing I think about, all I said was that i cant go around fixing everything. I threw a huge fit on Lawrence O Donalds blog when he talked about nonwhite actors not being nominated and other people said that wasnt sucg a big deal and I basically just threw out their arguments and basically said that nonwhite actors should be cast in movies more. Plus i was one of the earliest people to call out Transformers 2 and how racist Michael Bays portrayed those two Autobots.
You really dont know jack about me. And accusing me of not caring about racism or not understanding it is just as ignorant on your part. And i'm not letting it pass as you say, I've in fact agreed with you on most things, for example I agree with you about Argo and Ben Affleck portraying himself as a great Latino Hero AND I agreed with you about Akira or did you miss that to serve your purpose?
Trust me Bob has been against racism and sexism for as long as i've been watching him.

oh and P.S: Bane himself is a stereotype, although he is Hispanic and British his whole look screams stereotypical mexican wrestler. Oh and for you to say that I dont notice racism in other industries just proves that you dont know anything about me.

Andrew said...

Hey Bob,

A friend of mine has been sharing your clips with me for some time now, and I just have to say, I'm blown away. I was just accepted into Yale's Ph.D. program for Sociology, and I don't think I have EVER, EVER discovered anyone who can so efficiently, concisely, and clearly deliver the topics you cover.

I mean, this? This was an amazing survey of the historical sociology of the "lost city" concept, a cultural artifact, and its ties to a racist origin. Amazing. The videos about sexism and racism? I've read so many articles which took ten times longer to say what you say, without making their points about male and/or white privilege nearly as clearly as you do.

It just blows me away. I love it. If you ever get bored, you could totally teach sociology.

In fact, shit, I want to use some of these videos in a presentation to other sociologists to illustrate how sociologists should be communicating their ideas to the public. It's just... you do this so well. Thank you for doing it.

Phil said...

@Goku50k

How does Santa Prisca being a European Spanish owned colony make it not a Latino country? "Latino" means from Latin America. Spain conquered and settled the majority of Latin America. That's why almost all Latin American countries now speak Spanish. Not that difficult to know that like all the other places Spain conquered in Latin America, it was full of indigenous people. Bane's mother was not European but was a native of Santa Prisca. That makes Bane just like many Latinos in terms of ancestry.

You mention Bane's "Luchador" look again as the stereotype his look based on. I believe we went through this where I said that he doesn't look that way at all in Nolan's upcoming film making it all moot if an actor of Latino descent was given a shot at the role.

While you are right that I don't know you I wasn't making a personal attack on you nor am I ignoring what you are saying to serve any purpose. Rather I am going by exactly your comments here. What I suggested about you was that you probably aren't really against racism like you think you are or don't really understand it if you are giving passes to events of whitewashing in movies just because a certain actor gave a performance you enjoyed. I believe I made it clear that I wasn't questioning Hardy's acting talents but the fact that his casting is taking away a possible great opportunity for an actor of Latino descent. If you start to give leeway to events of whitewashing just because a white actor gave a performance you enjoyed than that is giving preference to a white actor and it also implies that a nonwhite wouldn't have been capable of the same kind of performance.

In a better world this wouldn't so much of an issue IF nonwhite actors were given the same opportunities as white actors because then there wouldn't be a problem of nonwhite talent not being given quality work and lead roles. However, since this isn't the situation Hollywood is in this is why whitewashing is so bad and racist. The fact that it has been going on for decades and continues to happen with no signs of stopping is disgusting.

I never said Bob isn't against racism or even sexism. My main issue was made clear in my first post.

Goku50k said...

@Phil,

You missed my point about Bane entirely, even the original Bane in the comic is a stereotype but thats a whole different topic all together, and your still personally attacking me by saying what you think I am or in fact what you think i'm not. And I never said that Santa Prisca wasnt Latino as much as I said that we dont know what his mother was, yes she could be mixed blood meaning blood from the local populaton which is clearly mainly Latino and traditional European hispanic blood as well, meaning her family could have lived there for decades or generatoins, or she could have been part of the local population which then yes it would make his mother would have been Latino, or what ever the dominate ethnic and racial population was.
Maybe I havent been clear enough but I agreed with you for the most part that Nolan should have picked a nonwhite actor to play Bane and that changing his background is probably not the right thing to do either, even if I think Bane's back story is boring. But he's changing it anyways just like he's been doing with every single villain in his Batman trilogy, at the same time as I said if he's going to change the character like he's been doing with most of his villains (aside from the Joker) he might as well change him completley, where's he's from, his racial identity, ethinic background and everything like that. Is there a need to do that even if I think he's a boring character, no not really but its a done deal. Tom Hardy is playing Bane and I cant do anything about it but just throw a hissy fit. I would rather fight for the future for example lets not whitewash Akira or lets fight against playing out old stereotypes, For example a film like Avatar or even a film like Flowers of War where the Whiteman simply saves the "sad" and "primitive" race because appparently they cant fight for themselves. But to fight against this in Hollywood I think that we need to fix the population first, because lets face it Hollywood is racist to some extent but it does reflect most of the countries thought process which is basically racist anyways. So lets help people not be racist and that could help hollywood.
Also do I know why Nolan is doing this exactly meaning changing all of his villains....no, not really since I dont know him personally.
And just like EVERY OTHER film you have brought up i have agreed with you.


PS: I'm willing to rewrite and give up some of our freedom of speech so that we can ban hate groups like the KKK and other white supremacist groups. Also here is the way I see Bane, he is the character by name only this really isnt the same Bane, they basically took the name and just slapped it on an original creation that was made for the film.

Lee Kalba said...

When I picture The Lost City trope, I think of South America, personally. I never thought of Africa, but I never read those adventure novels, either.
In my brain, The Lost City is places like Machu Picchu or the Mayan ruins or other ruins in South America and Mexico. I've always pictured ancient ruins built by Indians, some of which were simply abandoned, before the Spanish got there to ruin the rest.

Phil said...

@Goku50k

Why would you assume that Bane's mother isn't a native of Santa Prisca? Why is there any doubt that he is half Latino? He was born in Latin America and speaks Spanish. Why does it have to be proven that his mother isn't European in order to accept that Bane is Latino.

If the creators were going to make Bane completely white then what was the point of having him being born in Latin America? What was the point of going as far as to even make up a Latin American country just for him?

You see that mentality makes no sense. There is no reason to think that Bane is anything other than Latino and that he is of mixed race.

You see, that's quite the mentality there that could only come from the conditioning that a white supremacist media pushes forth. That unless it's completely said otherwise then the default is white.

There was no reason for Nolan to do what he did with Bane and cast an Anglo-Saxon actor. If there was any issue with Bane not being compelling enough there is no reason it couldn't have been improved while still maintaining his background. Many characters that were largely considered lame were then largely accepted as great due to quality writing while still maintaining many aspects that have been established. (e.g. Aquaman).

And you are mistaken, Nolan didn't completely change characters. Joker is largely who he is in the comics save for the fact that he actually wears face paint. Scarecrow is also pretty close to the comic book and the only major difference between the Two Face from the comics and Nolan's movie is that he isn't a family man and he becomes Two Face in a different manner.

And in none of those cases did Nolan feel the need to change the ethnicities. Joker didn't become black, Scarecrow didn't turn Native American and Two-Face wasn't changed to be Asian. However, the two major and interesting villains that were not white (Ra's al Ghul and Bane) get whitewashed. I wonder about Nolan.

Hollywood is not "racist to some extent." It's racist period. I don't think the country is as racist as Hollywood is. If that were the case then people wouldn't line up to see Will Smith's movies.

One doesn't need to wait for the population to get "fixed" before "fixing" Hollywood. If that were the case then other industries would still have people of color being marginalized and not being given equal opportunities as well (e.g. the sports industry).

Goku50k said...

2phil,

Now i know yoour just disagreeing with me to just disagree since i basically just agreed with you. And to be honest the population is mostly racist, the population lines up to see Will Smith because he an entertainer, White Americans are completley okay for the most part of having Black Americans entertain like sports players, musicians and other things and not a whole lot more. Will Smith has been picked for the same type of parts for the most part , the stereotypical Black American who always has to be funny and a little bit non-serious because god forbid a minority actor acts seroius on screen, oh and when minorities are in seroius roles its always in bad action films. So yea Your right Hollywood is racist since not only are they putting minorities in the same type of roles mostly but at the same time they wont even give minorities important roles.
And yea the population is racist Look at the way for example President Obama OR Keith Ellison from Minnesota are being treated if the population wasnt racist then we werent being giving them so much crap for example The Birther movement and questioning his religion <--and those are just two of the examples that I can give out of a million. And for Keith Ellison we wouldnt have cared that he swore into congress on a Quran. or how about the way we treat Middle Easterners in this country, or how we create boundaries between Neighborhoods like gates and other things OR how about the of gentrification in most neighborhoods in modern American. Minority communities are becoming smaller and smaller because White American keeps expanding and creating housing that is to expensive for the people that live in the neighborhoods. Yea the population is okay with having minorities entertaining but they are not okay with having them lead the country even after 8 years of American practically being ruled by fascist regime. Sure President Obama won but look what came out of it, The Tea Party and its racist rederich and now American has more White supremacist groups ever and yet nobody is willing to give up a little bit of freedom so that we can get rid of those groups, its always about "freedom of speech" and all that crap. You want to fix Hollywood fix the ways in which the majority of the population treats minorities in this country and that will reflect how Hollywood acts.

Now back to Bane, just because he's born in a Latin American country doesnt make him not a stereotypical character, PLUS i never said the creators were trying to make him completely white, your putting words in my mouth. I SAID he was a stereotype in some sense, the entire look of him is stereotypical.


PS: If you think all of Hollywood is racist then your just as ignorant and if you cant see the connection between how Hollywood acts and the ways in which the majority of the Population acts then your really ignorant. Oh and this so called "White Supremacist" media your talking about, I guess i would be one as well since I only watch Keith Olbermann, Cenk Uygur who is part of The Young Turks and MSNBC...........So yeaaaaaaa.

PPS: he could have changed Lucius Fox arguably the second most powerful man in Gotham City aside from Bruce Wayne why did he change his character? He could have done it if he really wanted to.

Phil said...

"Now i know yoour just disagreeing with me to just disagree since i basically just agreed with you."

Look closely at what I was replying to. We weren't agreeing on those points.

Plus it seems you are misreading somethings I write. For example:

"PLUS i never said the creators were trying to make him completely white, your putting words in my mouth."

I didn't put words in your mouth. You said that we don't know what Bane's mother was so you are suggesting she could be anything. My point to counteract that thinking is simple. If Bane were just a white guy, why make him Latin America at all? It makes no sense. It is clear that he is meant to be at least half Latin American.

In regards to your other points:

The reason why Lucius Fox is still kept black is because of something Hollywood uses known as a "token minority."

I do agree that there is still plenty of racism in society. My point is that I don't think the U.S. is as racist as Hollywood is evidenced by the fact that a nonwhite person like Will Smith is a full fledged movie star who commands the box office. Even if there are racists who will still pay money to watch a Smith movie that still proves my point that it isn't as racist as Hollywood is and that there is no reason to not give nonwhites the same opportunities as white actors.

One of the things that white supremacists groups say is that nonwhites aren't as good as whites are. Well, if they aren't being given the opportunity to show if they are then those kinds of beliefs will still linger since there is nothing to disprove it.

This is why I go back to saying that if one waits for everything else to get "fixed" before Hollywood then it will never get "fixed" because that's not how it works. Do you really think that the majority of whites back in the day wanted to see blacks play on the same baseball field as whites? No but the barrier was taken down regardless and now it's not an issue anymore even though there is still racism in society. Hollywood should be treated no differently.


And I wouldn't start using Cenk Uygur as some sort of example of someone with no racist motives. If I recall correctly in one of his segments he actually made a big deal that Kim Kardashain usually dates black men going as far as to call for a poll on his website if she has a "fetish" for black men. Uygur is a guy who claims he is post-racial and attacks racists but then needs to make an issue of a white woman who tends to be in so called interracial relationships. "So yeaaaaaaa."

Goku50k said...

@Phil,

we were in fact agreeing on a lot of points thats the first point, and but it just didnt seem to sink in. 2) I did say that Bane's mother was in fact from the local population but putting her in one raical or ethnic category is wrong. So yea, and 3) Cenk is one of the most liberal and anti-racist today in the media and in fact on that Kim Kardashian thing he was in fact talking about racial stereotyping and how we create a fetishism around being or dating certain races and ethnicities. And three Just because Will Smith is a full fledged actor doesnt mean that are society isnt just as racist as Hollywod, as I said time and time again to you but it doesnt seem to sink in Hollywood has always reflected somewhat what the country wants. And again I never said that Non-White American actors or actresses shouldnt have the same opportunity. OF COURSE ITS STILL AN ISSUE, Look at how Non-White actors tend to play in films just look at it, its the same type of stereotypes, I mean did you see the film "Pariah" its about a lesbian girl who is a minority who lives in Brooklyn. That film did terrible in the box office and do you want to know why, not only is it because its an actual serious on how minorities in this country deal with sexuality in this case homo-eroticism but also a young girl deals with it. A lot of people in this country are not ready to see minorities step out of their stereotypical roles in Hollywood which in fact makes American just as racist. You cannot say that Hollywood is racist but then say that a good percentage of the country isnt racist it just doesnt work that way.

Oh and here's the funny thing about your White Supremacy argument, even if they are shown a non-white actor or actress play a huge role it wouldnt matter, this stuff runs so deep that it wont matter if non-white actors play big roles because these people arent even going to go see the film anways.

And whats even funny is that you act like your only person on the fact of the planet who isnt racist and for anybody who "disagrees" with you is just racist. and if you cant see the the racism that exists outside of Hollywood then you really are just as bad as you think I am.

Oh and do you know that being Latin-American or Latin-w/e is not exactly a racial category but in fact an ethinic groupm, there is a difference between race and ethnicity. And I have plenty of friends who are Latin-American who really really hate it when they are counted as a racial group instead of being thought of as a ethnic community.

john said...

So I guess the lesson here is that any time Bob starts off a video with "wait, stop, don't leave," it's a sign to do exactly that.

Phil said...

@Goku50k

"Oh and do you know that being Latin-American or Latin-w/e is not exactly a racial category but in fact an ethinic groupm, there is a difference between race and ethnicity."

Here's the thing though: ALL racial categories are social constructs. "Race" has no basis in anything factual/scientific. "Race" essentially does not exist. However because people still base their attitudes and behaviors against others based on these archaic constructs it is still an issue and therefore everything I have been saying still stands.

Uygur may claim whatever he wants to claim and sit on his soap box criticizing others on supposed racism but that Kardashain segment showcases his subconscious racism. It was a disgusting display. He's "anti-racist" yet it somehow calls his attention that a white woman has gone out with many black men. However, if he is supposedly "anti-racist" why does he make any issue out of it at all? Why did he even contemplate that it was a fetish? Why make a public poll out of it?

"Oh and here's the funny thing about your White Supremacy argument, even if they are shown a non-white actor or actress play a huge role it wouldnt matter, this stuff runs so deep that it wont matter if non-white actors play big roles because these people arent even going to go see the film anways. "

I suppose you already forgot Will Smith? Denzel Washington and Samuel L. Jackson are also others that have strong box office appeal and they are black too. If the stuff "runs so deep" there wouldn't even be on let alone three.

"And whats even funny is that you act like your only person on the fact of the planet who isnt racist and for anybody who "disagrees" with you is just racist."

That's strange. The only person I have been debating here with at length is you so where are you getting "anybody" from?

On other points:

Hollywood isn't a reflection of the United States' wants. That's evidenced by the fact that even the movies they make aren't reflective of the actual demographics of the country. Understand that Hollywood is a more or less an exclusive club that lives in its own bubble. Hollywood produces what it wants and attempts to use clever marketing in order to sell it to the masses and if that doesn't work they'll just find another that fits in with their template and push it forward again until it or something else sticks.

And why on earth would you use Pariah as a movie that did "terrible" at the box office? That movie had no chance to make any sort of monetary impression at the box office as it only got released in 24 theaters in the whole country.

Bobiojimbo said...

Question for the Mail Bag:

Have you ever thought about doing your own feature length film? If so, what would your movie be about? I'm not in anyway suggesting that you should, or saying that I want you to, but as a film critic and fan, you must have fantasized about this at least once.